what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Someone said 5 km on diesel before switching to veg. I have found that in summer I drive 1.9 km at average 50 kph and the oil in the HE is 70 degrees C so I can change to veg. I choose to change back at the same point (1.9 km from home) to purge. This is probably extravagent as I could probably change back at obout 0.5 km from home to purge. In winter it may be a little further, I will report on that this winter.
If I am just driving to the sailing club it is only 700 metres so I should be walking anyway. If I drive to my closer workplace it is a 25 km and if I am there for 4 hours then the engine is not fully cold for the return trip so I can switch to veg at 1 km from work so the work and return trip would include only 3.9 km on diesel for a 50 km round trip. My further workplace is 100 km from home so that return trip would be 3.9 km on diesel for a 200 km round trip. So for my circumstances it would not be worthwhile going to the trouble of titting a ststem to electrically preheat the fuel filter and heat the injector lines to allow for starting on veg.
For those who do lots of short trips it would be worthwhile. Read Marcus's book to learn lots about it.

Now just last year I needed to make my decision and I looked at the bio option and the SVO option.
I found that I could get unfiltered WVO for nothing. I could buy/scavenge the equipment for filtering and end up with, for every litre of free oil collected, very nearly 1 litre of fuel. The only cost being the initial cost of the equipment and my time and effort.
If I wanted to convert my unfiltered WVO to bio I would have to filter it just the same, then buy/scavenge more equipment to turn it into bio. In addition I would have to buy methanol ($1/litre, 200 litres minimum). Assuming 100 ml methanol/litre oil we spend 10 cents/litre of oil to make 750 ml bio and 250 ml Methyl Glycerol?? (are my figures anywhere near the mark?).
So after buying more equipment and using considerably more time and effort and spending, say, 10 cents, I get somewhat less than 1 litre of fuel from my litre of veg. Why would I do that and run the risk of using the dangerous chemicals (none of what I use is dangerous, it is food) and either pay the excise or feel guilty about not paying it? Just to avoid the one off cost of conversion?
The conversion on my vehicle can be easily removed, leaving no trace. The temporary start-up tank will be removed when the long range tank is installed so there will be no trace there either.
I use 100 litres of fuel each week so it only takes a few weeks of paying $0.00/litre for fuel rather than $1.50 to pay for the conversion. From then on fuel is free (apart from my time and effort).
If I went for the bio option I would not need to modify the vehicle (I would want the long range tank anyway, I was originally planning to buy B100 from Morris or from rutherford once I had a 260 litre capacity and if I was making bio I would want that sort of capacity to avoid the need to buy diesel on longer trips).

So to summarise, from my point of view:

Option 1, do nothing:
Fuel costs $1.50/litre (average).
I hate the smell, both raw and burnt.

Option 2, use commercial B100:
Fuel costs $1.20/litre (guess).
I have to drive 50 km to Rutherford or 150 km to Marrickville to fill up.
I have heard that B100 can damage paintwork if spilt.

Option 3, Make B100:
Fuel costs $0.10 - $0.50/litre (estimates).
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
I have to buy Methanol ($1/litre) and caustic soda (very cheap?)
I have to convert filtered oil to biodiesel (more time and effort).
I have to handle methanol and caustic soda.
I have to store and dispose of methyl glycerol.
I have heard that B100 can damage paintwork if spilt.
I get sig' less than 1 litre of fuel from each litre of filtered oil.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.
I feelbad about not paying excise.

Option 4, 2 tank SVO system:
Main fuel costs $0.00/litre.
Start-up fuel costs $1.50/litre (unless I can get some bio from a home maker)
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
Vegetable oil is good for paintwork and protective against rust.
I get 1 litre of fuel for each litre of filtered oil.
I have to start up on diesel (or B100) and purge before stopping (possibly idling in driveway if I forget).
I have to pay one off for conversion.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.

Option 5, single tank SVO system:
Fuel costs $0.00/litre.
No start-up fuel required.
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
Vegetable oil is good for paintwork and protective against rust.
I get 1 litre of fuel for each litre of filtered oil.
I neither have to start up on diesel nor purge before stopping.
I have to pay more than option 4 for one off conversion.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.

So for me it was just a decision between 4 and 5.
Since I do mainly longish trips and hope to find an amateur bio producer locally (informal co-operative) and would be having 2 tanks anyway it was no contest. Option 4 for me. Others may find other options more suitable.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

G'day Nick. When you list "No Restrictons on travel distances", what do you mean exactly? Are WVO users restricted in the distances they can travel from their fuel supply more than bio users?

Dane like gwalker said i can fill up anywhere i like on a full tank worth of dino or bio from any servo, not a small start tank worth. But also like fitian said the oil in a wvo setup has to be warmed 1st and many (including myself) do short trips often and this is not an option at the moment.

While there is no physical evidence of the conversion, the aroma of veg/biodiesel remains for a long time after returning to the use of diesel fuel.
The other main iissue I see, is that the biodiesel by-product, whilst usable in small volumes has no market for small volumes, necessitating responsible disposal of this by-product.

Some sewage processing facilities may accept quantities of this substance with no problems, others may object strenuously.
Before disposing of it via the sewer, you shuld check to confirm compatability.

Some people use it in compost or on broadacre pasture as a fertiliser/wetting agent. This may not be compatable with soil types in your area so please verify with specialists in your area.

If you need to dispose of large volumes of by-product, actively seek people who may have a use for the by-product, before disposing of the substance.

regards,
Tony

Tony i don't beleive many small home user would have that much of a prob with the glycerol. I do clothes boats and cars and excess goes out with the wheelie bin to the tip. Is that wrong or not?
I don't think any dino freak would pick the smell of veg after a tank full of dino goes through your engine. Just tell em the kids had a dagwood dog

If I wanted to convert my unfiltered WVO to bio I would have to filter it just the same, then buy/scavenge more equipment to turn it into bio. In addition I would have to buy methanol ($1/litre, 200 litres minimum). Assuming 100 ml methanol/litre oil we spend 10 cents/litre of oil to make 750 ml bio and 250 ml Methyl Glycerol?? (are my figures anywhere near the mark?).
So after buying more equipment and using considerably more time and effort and spending, say, 10 cents, I get somewhat less than 1 litre of fuel from my litre of veg. Why would I do that and run the risk of using the dangerous chemicals (none of what I use is dangerous, it is food) and either pay the excise or feel guilty about not paying it? Just to avoid the one off cost of conversion?
I use 100 litres of fuel each week so it only takes a few weeks of paying $0.00/litre for fuel rather than $1.50 to pay for the conversion. From then on fuel is free (apart from my time and effort).

Option 1, do nothing:
Fuel costs $1.50/litre (average).
I hate the smell, both raw and burnt.

Option 2, use commercial B100:
Fuel costs $1.20/litre (guess).
I have to drive 50 km to Rutherford or 150 km to Marrickville to fill up.
I have heard that B100 can damage paintwork if spilt.

Option 3, Make B100:
Fuel costs $0.10 - $0.50/litre (estimates).
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
I have to buy Methanol ($1/litre) and caustic soda (very cheap?)
I have to convert filtered oil to biodiesel (more time and effort).
I have to handle methanol and caustic soda.
I have to store and dispose of methyl glycerol.
I have heard that B100 can damage paintwork if spilt.
I get sig' less than 1 litre of fuel from each litre of filtered oil.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.
I feelbad about not paying excise.

Option 4, 2 tank SVO system:
Main fuel costs $0.00/litre.
Start-up fuel costs $1.50/litre (unless I can get some bio from a home maker)
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
Vegetable oil is good for paintwork and protective against rust.
I get 1 litre of fuel for each litre of filtered oil.
I have to start up on diesel (or B100) and purge before stopping (possibly idling in driveway if I forget).
I have to pay one off for conversion.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.

Option 5, single tank SVO system:
Fuel costs $0.00/litre.
No start-up fuel required.
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
Vegetable oil is good for paintwork and protective against rust.
I get 1 litre of fuel for each litre of filtered oil.
I neither have to start up on diesel nor purge before stopping.
I have to pay more than option 4 for one off conversion.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.

So for me it was just a decision between 4 and 5.
Since I do mainly longish trips and hope to find an amateur bio producer locally (informal co-operative) and would be having 2 tanks anyway it was no contest. Option 4 for me. Others may find other options more suitable.

oil for bio doesn't need filtering as the reaction drops all the crap out.
your figures are way off 1 litre oil makes 1 litre of bio generally. and a little waste.
Do you feel guity now driving without paying the 38.5c a litre?? You still do the same as every other motorist.
how many kms til you break even ??? It costs me 0.30c a litre so still cheap and no mod cost reactor and all gear about $300 and time.

option 1 agree option 2 thats your personal cercomestance not gospel.
option 3 most of your points are flawed here or incorrect
option 4 not suited to well for female drivers
option 5 best svo option cost though how much?? how many kms to break even and people sometime change vehicles often.

bio also allows for many vehicles to utilise the one reactor. ie 2-3 cars running off 1 reactor.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

option 4 not suited to well for female drivers

I wont let my wife see that for fear of a flame war. Drives happily around in her merc and knows to switch at the right point to purge.

[daved Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close daved]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Thanks all and Fitian I returned my timing to where it was and valves and injs were done recently ( 130 each inj ! I hope theyre ok !) Some one else on the 300D thread suggest purge with some product , do these things blend with veg oil ok ?
Thanks.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

The other distance restriction with WVO is that the main tank is normally used for WVO with the smaller 'startup/shut down' tank for diesel or biodiesel.
So when you travel beyond your WVO tank capacity or supply, you have to make decisions on what fuel to buy and where to put it.

Bio vehicles simply top up with dino from any service station.

The other problem with WVO is the gell point of the batch. Frosty mornings can cause problems if the WVO in the main tank has gone solid.

Bio is known to disolve older types of seals and is also suspected of 'blowby', getting into the sump, thus reducing the effectiveness of the oil.

I use original tank for diesel and a separate smaller tank for WVO so no difference from unconverted vehicle re range.

Starting is on diesel for both types of vehicle so frosty mornings no problem, even if the WVO tank is solid it will be heated at the pickup point and liquified before changeover to WVO 10ks down the road. Yes not so suitable for short trips.
Dont think you can purge in 1 or 2 km, consider how much fuel your IP holds, mine, (Bosch VE type) holds 445 ml. You may be getting away with short purges. I thought I was, I was getting instant cold starts for instance, but those short purge times ultimately came back to bite me in the form of a gummed up I.P.
Johnnojack

[tbird650 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tbird650]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

but those short purge times ultimately came back to bite me in the form of a gummed up I.P.

Hi Johnnojack, what happened with this gummed IP? Did you strip it down to find the deposits? If so, what event caused you to investigate?

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

The other distance restriction with WVO is that the main tank is normally used for WVO with the smaller 'startup/shut down' tank for diesel or biodiesel.
So when you travel beyond your WVO tank capacity or supply, you have to make decisions on what fuel to buy and where to put it.

Bio vehicles simply top up with dino from any service station.

There is no problem putting dino or bio in the WVO tank (except the cost).
So a WVO vehicle can also simply top up with dino from any service station if the journey goes beyond the range of the WVO tank.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

I only would like to advise/add that in a situation like "running out of wvo on a trip" Do not use the wvo to the last drop then add dino. But it is recommended if wvo is topped up by diesel or bio before wvo has ran out. This is to maintain the lubricity of the fuel going into the heat exchangers.

I usually take enough wvo for my trips or get in contact with other wvo users in the way to pick up some of their extra wvo. If this is not available and using dino is a must then keeping some wvo to add to the dino should do the job without modifying the conversion.

Regards

[maverick_sr71 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close maverick_sr71]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

I wont let my wife see that for fear of a flame war. Drives happily around in her merc and knows to switch at the right point to purge.

You're wife would have to be in the minority, mine could never grasp such a technical concept.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Cap't Echidna is an expert in training people to be able to meet his expectations.

[Nuddy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nuddy]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Dane like gwalker said i can fill up anywhere i like on a full tank worth of dino or bio from any servo, not a small start tank

I can fill my wvo tank with dino or bio the conversion only heats the oil to coolant temp which happens to the fuel from the start tank anyway.

But also like fitian said the oil in a wvo setup has to be warmed 1st and many (including myself) do short trips often and this is not an option at the moment.

Agreed. If you do mainly short trips then a 2 tank system is not for you, although a single tank system may be. I was told (by a very experienced mechanic) not to get a diesel if I was doing mainly short trips as I would quickly wear it out. Truckies often leave their diesels idling for extended periods rather than let them cool down and warm up again.

oil for bio doesn't need filtering as the reaction drops all the crap out.

That's good news.

your figures are way off 1 litre oil makes 1 litre of bio generally. and a little waste.

Good, I was only guessing. What does methanol cost? What does caustic soda cost? How mant mls of methanol do you need for a litre of oil? How much caustic soda do you need for a litre of oil? You say you get a litre of bio from a litre of oil, how much methyl glycerol do you get from that litre of oil?

how many kms til you break even ???

Materials cost for conversion approx $800 then I save $1.50/litre so when I have used 533 litres it is paid for. I use approx' 100 litres/week doing mainly 100+ km trips so just over 5 weeks for me.

It costs me 0.30c a litre so still cheap and no mod cost reactor and all gear about $300 and time.

You might just get me making it if it's that cheap and easy. Even if I pay the exise (is it 38.5 cents/litre) then it is only 68.5 which is way less than the $1.50 I pay for start-up fuel and I am told I can use all the fat I cold filter out to make bio!

option 3 most of your points are flawed here or incorrect

Please correct me.

option 4 not suited to well for female drivers

Most of the female drivers that I know can handle it quite well. They know when to turn the headlights on and remember to turn them off when they get home.

option 5 best svo option cost though how much?? how many kms to break even and people sometime change vehicles often.

Yes the only svo option for you with your short trips, Cost considerably more I would think - haven't investigated. I don't change vehicles often and most of the components would change over anyway.
I would think that in your situation, if you were starting from scratch, it would be a hard decision on whether to set up to make bio or do a single tank conversion. Saving 30c/litre and dare I say using less time and effort to use SVO. Since you are already set up to make bio it is probably not worthwhile to change for the sake of 30c/litre.
For me it was no contest, with my long trips, to go for a 2 tank WVO conversion

bio also allows for many vehicles to utilise the one reactor. ie 2-3 cars running off 1 reactor.

Good point. 2-3 cars running at 30c/litre.
I will be converting my son's Surf (as soon as he gets it) and when the lease expires on our LPG falcon ute it will probably be replaced with another Surf which I will convert. Then we will be running 3 vehicles on WVO, my son will have to collect his own oil - I will filter it for him.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Option 3, Make B100:
Fuel costs $0.10 - $0.50/litre (estimates).
I have to collect and filter oil (time and effort).
I have to buy Methanol ($1/litre) and caustic soda (very cheap?)
I have to convert filtered oil to biodiesel (more time and effort).
I have to handle methanol and caustic soda.
I have to store and dispose of methyl glycerol.
I have heard that B100 can damage paintwork if spilt.
I get sig' less than 1 litre of fuel from each litre of filtered oil.
Filters should last as long or longer than for diesel if I have filtered properly.
I feelbad about not paying excise.


no filtering required the crudd drops out in the reaction.
metanol 205litre for $225.
Caustic soda i paid $15 for 5 kg (i'm sure i can get it cheaper)
making bio is an enjoyable process and takes me about 2-3 hours over 2-3 days. when i say 2-3 hours thats just being near the reactor for safety.( usually read my book while i'm mixing.)
methanol and caustic are i believe over hyped up. Common sence prevales.
the glycerol is really not that bad a little soap for laundry the car and some in the wheelie bin once dryed out.
b100 or b5 can both damage paintwork. just hose of any spills when filling.
you don't get significantly less fuel from 1 litre of veg. prob more as i can use the solidified oil and high melt point oils.
your right filters are fine on b100.
i don't see how someone can feel bad about the exice and still use svo. this is stupid beaurocrasy. svo and bio are renewable energys neither should be taxed. My concience is clean. but horses for courses.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

Hi Johnnojack, what happened with this gummed IP? Did you strip it down to find the deposits? If so, what event caused you to investigate?

I loaded up and drove off after the vehicle had sat idle for 2 weeks and soon lost power, got 3 ks up the road and had to crawl home at 20kmh. Filters OK so took off IP. Will start another thread on it if anyone is interested.
Johnnojack

[BIO-CX Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BIO-CX]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

G'day, I've just recently got the old Citroen back on the road after an engine rebuild and have been toying with the idea of using WVO as opposed to the Biodiesel I had been using. This discussion has been very informative and there are some questions I have and a concern or two.

I loved the Bio but it was a total nightmare for the car. Everything made of rubber that the fuel came into contact with turned to licorice, the paint near the fuel filler is wrecked and I'm just a little suspicious why a big end bearing failed and another was on the way.......the reason I'm wary is this talk about blow-by and these bearing shells have a copper layer.
Could by-products from the combustion of Biodiesel enter the crankcase this way and affect metals that are not compatible such as copper? Why is Biodiesel so aggressive?

I have been using petrodiesel since fixing the car which I strongly dislike but have been adding 2L of vegetable oil to a 65L tank and last time the fuel light came on I thought I'd try straight veg oil so I put in 2L and it went well. No starting difficulties at all with what was probably 30% SVO.

I've replaced all the fuel lines now after losing a whole tank of biodiesel and noticed that the lower part of the filler pipe is always in contact with fuel and the Bio has softened it too. If I rub my finger on the pipe a black residue comes off and it smells like biodiesel, so it has been seeping through the rubber. If this pipe fails I'll lose fuel very quickly and it isn't easy to find a replacement, so until I can get my car modified to run on Biodiesel, I'll explore WVO a bit more as a blend with petrodiesel.

This is why I get a little frustrated when many people say that "no modifications" are needed to run a car on Biodiesel. This just isn't true. I can't stress to people enough the importance of going through the fuel delivery system before using Biodiesel because it just wrecked everything that was made of rubber in a short time and I lost fuel and spent a fair bit of money on getting new hoses and replacing filters that were getting blocked with rubber particles. I love it but I would rather tell people to be more cautious than just use BD and see what happens.




Cheers, Andy

[Geoffwin Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Geoffwin]

Re: what are the benefits of SVO over Bio

There is a fair bit of info around about impact on rubber.

Try running the citoen on blends for a while, you have started by throwing some in.

This time of year 50:50 would probably be no trouble, but of course you can build up to that.

I am just down the road from you and I am running l/c at 80:20 startup and 20:80 when warm.

Play around for a while perhaps next time the light comes on put a mix in a jerrycan and try it, then next time another mix with a higher percentage of oil - keep doing this until you are happy.

If it starts getting colder and a bit harder to start reduce the amount of oil.

I probably over filter my oil but it is only my time. Just waiting for some 1 micron bags to go a bit further (I have noticed some fine very dark material drop out of 5 micron oil after sitting for a month or so).

Drifted off a bit but try the blends and when you are happy you will probably get excited about complete conversions :-)