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  • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

    I suppose that readers of this forum can be excused for believing I am making up this idea that man made CO2 DOES NOT PRODUCE GLOBAL WARMING, however in case you still have some doubts, this is an open letter to the united nations and after reading it's brief content, have a look at the list of signatories and their qualifications.
    And no, unfortunately I am not among the signatories yet I fully endorse the content for what it is worth.



    Open Letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations Written by 100 Prominent Scientists Friday, 14 December 2007
    [Illustrations, footnotes and references available in PDF version]



    Dear Mr. Secretary-General,
    Re: UN climate conference taking the World in entirely the wrong direction
    It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages. Geological, archaeological, oral and written histories all attest to the dramatic challenges posed to past societies from unanticipated changes in temperature, precipitation, winds and other climatic variables. We therefore need to equip nations to become resilient to the full range of these natural phenomena by promoting economic growth and wealth generation.
    The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued increasingly alarming conclusions about the climatic influences of human-produced carbon dioxide (CO2), a non-polluting gas that is essential to plant photosynthesis. While we understand the evidence that has led them to view CO2 emissions as harmful, the IPCC's conclusions are quite inadequate as justification for implementing policies that will markedly diminish future prosperity. In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions. On top of which, because attempts to cut emissions will slow development, the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it.
    The IPCC Summaries for Policy Makers are the most widely read IPCC reports amongst politicians and non-scientists and are the basis for most climate change policy formulation. Yet these Summaries are prepared by a relatively small core writing team with the final drafts approved line-by-line by *government *representatives. The great *majority of IPCC contributors and *reviewers, and the tens of thousands of other scientists who are qualified to comment on these matters, are not involved in the preparation of these documents. The summaries therefore cannot properly be represented as a consensus view among experts.
    Contrary to the impression left by the IPCC Summary reports:
    ·Recent observations of phenomena such as glacial retreats, sea-level rise and the migration of temperature-sensitive species are not evidence for abnormal climate change, for none of these changes has been shown to lie outside the bounds of known natural variability.
    ·The average rate of warming of 0.1 to 0. 2 degrees Celsius per decade recorded by satellites during the late 20th century falls within known natural rates of warming and cooling over the last 10,000 years.
    ·Leading scientists, including some senior IPCC representatives, acknowledge that today's computer models cannot predict climate. Consistent with this, and despite computer projections of temperature rises, there has been no net global warming since 1998. That the current temperature plateau follows a late 20th-century period of warming is consistent with the continuation today of natural multi-decadal or millennial climate cycling.
    In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is "settled," significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming. But because IPCC working groups were generally instructed (see http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/docs/wg...2006-08-14.pdf) to consider work published only through May, 2005, these important findings are not included in their reports; i.e., the IPCC assessment reports are already materially outdated.
    The UN climate conference in Bali has been planned to take the world along a path of severe CO2 restrictions, ignoring the lessons apparent from the failure of the Kyoto Protocol, the chaotic nature of the European CO2 trading market, and the ineffectiveness of other costly initiatives to curb greenhouse gas emissions. Balanced cost/benefit analyses provide no support for the introduction of global measures to cap and reduce energy consumption for the purpose of restricting CO2 emissions. Furthermore, it is irrational to apply the "precautionary principle" because many scientists recognize that both climatic coolings and warmings are realistic possibilities over the medium-term future.
    The current UN focus on "fighting climate change," as illustrated in the Nov. 27 UN Development Programme's Human Development Report, is distracting governments from adapting to the threat of inevitable natural climate changes, whatever forms they may take. National and international planning for such changes is needed, with a focus on helping our most vulnerable citizens adapt to conditions that lie ahead. Attempts to prevent global climate change from occurring are ultimately futile, and constitute a tragic misallocation of resources that would be better spent on humanity's real and pressing problems.
    Yours faithfully,
    [List of signatories]

    Copy to: Heads of state of countries of the signatory persons.
    Signatories of an open letter on the UN climate-conference
    Published: Wednesday, December 12, 2007
    The following are signatories to the Dec. 13th letter to the Ban Ki-moon, Secretary-General of the United Nations on the UN Climate conference in Bali:

    Don Aitkin, PhD, Professor, social scientist, retired vice-chancellor and president, University of Canberra, Australia
    William J.R. Alexander, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa; Member, UN Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000
    Bjarne Andresen, PhD, physicist, Professor, The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
    Geoff L. Austin, PhD, FNZIP, FRSNZ, Professor, Dept. of Physics, University of Auckland, New Zealand
    Timothy F. Ball, PhD, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg
    Ernst-Georg Beck, Dipl. Biol., Biologist, Merian-Schule Freiburg, Germany
    Sonja A. Boehmer-Christiansen, PhD, Reader, Dept. of Geography, Hull University, U.K.; Editor, Energy & Environment journal
    Chris C. Borel, PhD, remote sensing scientist, U.S.
    Reid A. Bryson, PhD, DSc, DEngr, UNE P. Global 500 Laureate; Senior Scientist, Center for Climatic Research; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology, of Geography, and of Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin
    Dan Carruthers, M.Sc., wildlife biology consultant specializing in animal ecology in Arctic and Subarctic regions, Alberta
    R.M. Carter, PhD, Professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia
    Ian D. Clark, PhD, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa
    Richard S. Courtney, PhD, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.
    Willem de Lange, PhD, Dept. of Earth and Ocean Sciences, School of Science and Engineering, Waikato University, New Zealand
    David Deming, PhD (Geophysics), Associate Professor, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Oklahoma
    Freeman J. Dyson, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.
    Don J. Easterbrook, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Geology, Western Washington University
    Lance Endersbee, Emeritus Professor, former dean of Engineering and Pro-Vice Chancellor of Monasy University, Australia
    Hans Erren, Doctorandus, geophysicist and climate specialist, Sittard, The Netherlands
    Robert H. Essenhigh, PhD, E.G. Bailey Professor of Energy Conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University
    Christopher Essex, PhD, Professor of Applied Mathematics and Associate Director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario
    David Evans, PhD, mathematician, carbon accountant, computer and electrical engineer and head of 'Science Speak,' Australia
    William Evans, PhD, editor, American Midland Naturalist; Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame
    Stewart Franks, PhD, Professor, Hydroclimatologist, University of Newcastle, Australia
    R. W. Gauldie, PhD, Research Professor, Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, School of Ocean Earth Sciences and Technology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa
    Guest
    Guest
    Last edited by Guest; 14 May 2008, 08:21 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

      Continued list of signatories:

      Lee C. Gerhard, PhD, Senior Scientist Emeritus, University of Kansas; former director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey
      Gerhard Gerlich, Professor for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics, Institut für Mathematische Physik der TU Braunschweig, Germany
      Albrecht Glatzle, PhD, sc.agr., Agro-Biologist and Gerente ejecutivo, INTTAS, Paraguay
      Fred Goldberg, PhD, Adjunct Professor, Royal Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Stockholm, Sweden
      Vincent Gray, PhD, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001, Wellington, New Zealand
      William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University and Head of the Tropical Meteorology Project
      Howard Hayden, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut
      Louis Hissink MSc, M.A.I.G., editor, AIG News, and consulting geologist, Perth, Western Australia
      Craig D. Idso, PhD, Chairman, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Arizona
      Sherwood B. Idso, PhD, President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, AZ, USA
      Andrei Illarionov, PhD, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity; founder and director of the Institute of Economic Analysis
      Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman - Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland
      Jon Jenkins, PhD, MD, computer modelling - virology, NSW, Australia
      Wibjorn Karlen, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden
      Olavi Kärner, Ph.D., Research Associate, Dept. of Atmospheric Physics, Institute of Astrophysics and Atmospheric Physics, Toravere, Estonia
      Joel M. Kauffman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia
      David Kear, PhD, FRSNZ, CMG, geologist, former Director-General of NZ Dept. of Scientific & Industrial Research, New Zealand
      Madhav Khandekar, PhD, former research scientist, Environment Canada; editor, Climate Research (2003-05); editorial board member, Natural Hazards; IPCC expert reviewer 2007
      William Kininmonth M.Sc., M.Admin., former head of Australia's National Climate Centre and a consultant to the World Meteorological organization's Commission for Climatology Jan J.H. Kop, MSc Ceng FICE (Civil Engineer Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers), Emeritus Prof. of Public Health Engineering, Technical University Delft, The Netherlands
      Prof. R.W.J. Kouffeld, Emeritus Professor, Energy Conversion, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands
      Salomon Kroonenberg, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Geotechnology, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands
      Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations), The Netherlands
      The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist; Chairman of the Central Europe Trust; former Chancellor of the Exchequer, U.K.
      Douglas Leahey, PhD, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary
      David R. Legates, PhD, Director, Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware
      Marcel Leroux, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS
      Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand
      William Lindqvist, PhD, independent consulting geologist, Calif.
      Richard S. Lindzen, PhD, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      A.J. Tom van Loon, PhD, Professor of Geology (Quaternary Geology), Adam Mickiewicz University, Poznan, Poland; former President of the European Association of Science Editors
      Anthony R. Lupo, PhD, Associate Professor of Atmospheric Science, Dept. of Soil, Environmental, and Atmospheric Science, University of Missouri-Columbia
      Richard Mackey, PhD, Statistician, Australia
      Horst Malberg, PhD, Professor for Meteorology and Climatology, Institut für Meteorologie, Berlin, Germany
      John Maunder, PhD, Climatologist, former President of the Commission for Climatology of the World Meteorological Organization (89-97), New Zealand
      Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K.
      Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph
      John McLean, PhD, climate data analyst, computer scientist, Australia
      Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition; Director, Centre for Resource Management Studies, New Zealand
      Fred Michel, PhD, Director, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Associate Professor of Earth Sciences, Carleton University
      Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics, Queen's University
      Asmunn Moene, PhD, former head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway
      Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist, Director of the IPA's Deregulation Unit, Australia
      Nils-Axel Morner, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden
      Lubos Motl, PhD, Physicist, former Harvard string theorist, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic
      John Nicol, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Physics, James Cook University, Australia
      David Nowell, M.Sc., Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, former chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa
      James J. O'Brien, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Meteorology and Oceanography, Florida State University
      Cliff Ollier, PhD, Professor Emeritus (Geology), Research Fellow, University of Western Australia
      Garth W. Paltridge, PhD, atmospheric physicist, Emeritus Professor and former Director of the Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia
      R. Timothy Patterson, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University
      Al Pekarek, PhD, Associate Professor of Geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minnesota
      Ian Plimer, PhD, Professor of Geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia
      Brian Pratt, PhD, Professor of Geology, Sedimentology, University of Saskatchewan
      Harry N.A. Priem, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Planetary Geology and Isotope Geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences
      Alex Robson, PhD, Economics, Australian National University Colonel F.P.M. Rombouts, Branch Chief - Safety, Quality and Environment, Royal Netherland Air Force
      R.G. Roper, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Institute of Technology
      Arthur Rorsch, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands
      Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, B.C.
      Tom V. Segalstad, PhD, (Geology/Geochemistry), Head of the Geological Museum and Associate Professor of Resource and Environmental Geology, University of Oslo, Norway
      Gary D. Sharp, PhD, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, CA
      S. Fred Singer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia and former director Weather Satellite Service
      L. Graham Smith, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario
      Roy W. Spencer, PhD, climatologist, Principal Research Scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville
      Peter Stilbs, TeknD, Professor of Physical Chemistry, Research Leader, School of Chemical Science and Engineering, KTH (Royal Institute of Technology), Stockholm, Sweden
      Hendrik Tennekes, PhD, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute
      Dick Thoenes, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemical Engineering, Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
      Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager - Industrial Energy Efficiency, Adjunct Associate Professor of Engineering Science, University of Maryland at College Park; Dept of Energy, Washington, DC
      Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD, geologist and paleoclimatologist, climate change consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand
      Len Walker, PhD, Power Engineering, Australia
      Edward J. Wegman, PhD, Department of Computational and Data Sciences, George Mason University, Virginia
      Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management, Production Management and Logistics, University of Technolgy and Economics Berlin, Germany
      Boris Winterhalter, PhD, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland
      David E. Wojick, PhD, P.Eng., energy consultant, Virginia
      Raphael Wust, PhD, Lecturer, Marine Geology/Sedimentology, James Cook University, Australia
      A. Zichichi, PhD, President of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva, Switzerland; Emeritus Professor of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy

      Comment


      • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

        Perhaps the problem the global warming fanatics face is this -

        "...It will be difficult for people to face the truth when their reputations, careers, government grants or hopes for social change depend on global warming..."

        Borrowed from Phil Chapman

        Comment


        • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

          Quick quiz - How many new coal fired power plants have been built in China in the two months this thread has been going ?

          Comment


          • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

            While I'm over discussing this with you Marc, the scientists you find convenient to quote all point their sticks to a carbon spike in the early 70's in the tropics as an anomaly.

            Lets cast our minds towards what the Americans were doing in the tropics in the early 70's - oh that's right, pumping a whole lot of firepower into a very small region of the world.

            While I'm not linking these events directly, I am pointing out the closed science you have used in your examples. It seems a natural conclusion that the sheer amount of direct/indirect emissions, such as massive loss of forestation (agent orange anyone), pollutants (burning), and then man-made emittants (gunpowder etc) had an atmospheric effect.

            To deny there was no effect is really quite retarded. I consider pointing a stick at the fact there was a carbon spike in the early 70's, without even mentioning Vietnam, a very retarded stance by the scientists who put together this report.

            I also note that 'effective' patterns for the purposes of these reports did not take into account WW2 - also according to the report they only became stable several years afterwards.

            While I'm not drawing any conclusions by this data, I'm merely pointing out that the evidence you have presented me (and I haven't read it all), is not telling the whole truth either.

            Comment


            • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

              Originally posted by Maelinar View Post
              I'm merely pointing out that the evidence you have presented me (and I haven't read it all), is not telling the whole truth either.
              Maelinar allow me bring Marc1 last post down to all you need to know to make it easier to understand.

              Originally posted by Marc1 View Post
              It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages.....

              list of signatories
              Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist,
              The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist;
              Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy,
              Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics,
              Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition
              Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics.
              Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist,
              Alex Robson, PhD, Economics,
              Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager -
              Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management,
              Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand
              Timothy F. Ball, PhD, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg
              Why not combing the department of meterology with treasury? Apparently if you are an expert in one, you are an expert in the other!

              And if you were wondering what the "international climate science coalition" is about.
              International Climate Science Coalition Bets that a Lie, Repeated Often Enough ... | DeSmogBlog

              And if you are wondering why Timothy Ball does not describe himself as
              "the first climatology PhD in Canada and a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg for 28 years" you may like to check
              Tim Ball vs. Dan Johnson Update | DeSmogBlog

              Or even just read that "(tim ball) is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist."

              Once again one of marc posts that with a little examining does not hold up to any scrutiny. I did once question if Marc1 was being paid by on oil company. Sorry, my mistake, you just quote those paid by oil companies.
              cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

              Comment


              • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                Mr Captain, did you really take the time to copy and paste line by line from the two pages list of signatories, those who's qualifications are economist?
                Well congratulations because take away the one you picked, all the others
                are scientist, professors in either Physics, Geology, Climatology etc.

                I am also not too fond of economist, considering that they are only artist in projecting the past onto the future and can not agree on anything anyway.

                However in the case of this elaborate CON portrayed onto the whole world, since it is mainly an economic/political stunt that has used science as the spearhead, it is only reasonable that economist want to have a say.

                After all the point of it all is to extract carbon "credits" and "debits" creating for the first time in history the very first universal tax to be administered by a universal government with total disregard to sovereignty. This would make Genghis Khan, Alexander, Cesar, Napoleon, Hitler, go delirious with joy!
                And the main course is of course the array of funds that different government will take away from their citizen to be used by this spurious pseudo authority for an imaginary fight against imaginary foes to achieve nothing at all.

                If you want an example close to home, see our Robin Hood budget. Billions towards "fighting climate change" (read poking at imaginary giants by a demented dreamer dressed up in junk) ... Yet the only real action to be taken to fight POLLUTION not climate change, clean sources of energy be it bio fuels or solar are frown upon, and the subsidy taken away from the (evil) rich.
                Guest
                Guest
                Last edited by Guest; 15 May 2008, 09:10 PM.

                Comment


                • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                  Have a look at this video. I hope you can get past the terrible introduction and hear the presenter. I fast forwarded to the start of the presentation.


                  Discovery Institute

                  Comment


                  • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                    To deny there was no effect is really quite retarded. I consider pointing a stick at the fact there was a carbon spike in the early 70's, without even mentioning Vietnam, a very retarded stance by the scientists who put together this report.
                    Maelinar, you got me confused here - I wasnt aware that any one had said there was no CO2/carbon increase.
                    Best explain a bit more rather then making childish coments calling people retarded.

                    I would of thought a good Ozy bush fire would put out more pollution then a few bombs, or even thousands of bombs a day.

                    I'm just a simple citizin of planet earth trying to work out just what the reality of this global warming thingy is, yet what I'm finding is the attitudes of many of the 'pro' global warming people to be near childish, while the people saying we need to have a closer look at the claims conduct themselves with a bit of maturity.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                      And another little video, a bit better made. It includes Al Gore presentations and answers to some of his claims.

                      YouTube - Global Warming: The Truth
                      [youtubevid]orfX_nbYTSs[/youtubevid]

                      Comment


                      • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                        Climate facts to warm to





                        Christopher Pearson | March 22, 2008

                        CATASTROPHIC predictions of global warming usually conjure with the notion of a tipping point, a point of no return.
                        Last Monday - on ABC Radio National, of all places - there was a tipping point of a different kind in the debate on climate change. It was a remarkable interview involving the co-host of Counterpoint, Michael Duffy and Jennifer Marohasy, a biologist and senior fellow of Melbourne-based think tank the Institute of Public Affairs. Anyone in public life who takes a position on the greenhouse gas hypothesis will ignore it at their peril. Duffy asked Marohasy: "Is the Earth stillwarming?"
                        She replied: "No, actually, there has been cooling, if you take 1998 as your point of reference. If you take 2002 as your point of reference, then temperatures have plateaued. This is certainly not what you'd expect if carbon dioxide is driving temperature because carbon dioxide levels have been increasing but temperatures have actually been coming down over the last 10 years."
                        Duffy: "Is this a matter of any controversy?"
                        Marohasy: "Actually, no. The head of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has actually acknowledged it. He talks about the apparent plateau in temperatures so far this century. So he recognises that in this century, over the past eight years, temperatures have plateaued ... This is not what you'd expect, as I said, because if carbon dioxide is driving temperature then you'd expect that, given carbon dioxide levels have been continuing to increase, temperatures should be going up ... So (it's) very unexpected, not something that's being discussed. It should be being discussed, though, because it's very significant."
                        Duffy: "It's not only that it's not discussed. We never hear it, do we? Whenever there's any sort of weather event that can be linked into the global warming orthodoxy, it's put on the front page. But a fact like that, which is that global warming stopped a decade ago, is virtually never reported, which is extraordinary."
                        Duffy then turned to the question of how the proponents of the greenhouse gas hypothesis deal with data that doesn't support their case. "People like Kevin Rudd and Ross Garnaut are speaking as though the Earth is still warming at an alarming rate, but what is the argument from the other side? What would people associated with the IPCC say to explain the (temperature) dip?"
                        Marohasy: "Well, the head of the IPCC has suggested natural factors are compensating for the increasing carbon dioxide levels and I guess, to some extent, that's what sceptics have been saying for some time: that, yes, carbon dioxide will give you some warming but there are a whole lot of other factors that may compensate or that may augment the warming from elevated levels of carbon dioxide.
                        "There's been a lot of talk about the impact of the sun and that maybe we're going to go through or are entering a period of less intense solar activity and this could be contributing to the current cooling."
                        Duffy: "Can you tell us about NASA's Aqua satellite, because I understand some of the data we're now getting is quite important in our understanding of how climate works?"
                        Marohasy: "That's right. The satellite was only launched in 2002 and it enabled the collection of data, not just on temperature but also on cloud formation and water vapour. What all the climate models suggest is that, when you've got warming from additional carbon dioxide, this will result in increased water vapour, so you're going to get a positive feedback. That's what the models have been indicating. What this great data from the NASA Aqua satellite ... (is) actually showing is just the opposite, that with a little bit of warming, weather processes are compensating, so they're actually limiting the greenhouse effect and you're getting a negative rather than a positive feedback."
                        Duffy: "The climate is actually, in one way anyway, more robust than was assumed in the climate models?"
                        Marohasy: "That's right ... These findings actually aren't being disputed by the meteorological community. They're having trouble digesting the findings, they're acknowledging the findings, they're acknowledging that the data from NASA's Aqua satellite is not how the models predict, and I think they're about to recognise that the models really do need to be overhauled and that when they are overhauled they will probably show greatly reduced future warming projected as a consequence of carbon dioxide."
                        Duffy: "From what you're saying, it sounds like the implications of this could beconsiderable ..."
                        Marohasy: "That's right, very much so. The policy implications are enormous. The meteorological community at the moment is really just coming to terms with the output from this NASA Aqua satellite and (climate scientist) Roy Spencer's interpretation of them. His work is published, his work is accepted, but I think people are still in shock at this point."
                        If Marohasy is anywhere near right about the impending collapse of the global warming paradigm, life will suddenly become a whole lot more interesting.
                        A great many founts of authority, from the Royal Society to the UN, most heads of government along with countless captains of industry, learned professors, commentators and journalists will be profoundly embarrassed. Let us hope it is a prolonged and chastening experience.
                        With catastrophe off the agenda, for most people the fog of millennial gloom will lift, at least until attention turns to the prospect of the next ice age. Among the better educated, the sceptical cast of mind that is the basis of empiricism will once again be back in fashion. The delusion that by recycling and catching public transport we can help save the planet will quickly come to be seen for the childish nonsense it was all along.
                        The poorest Indians and Chinese will be left in peace to work their way towards prosperity, without being badgered about the size of their carbon footprint, a concept that for most of us will soon be one with Nineveh and Tyre, clean forgotten in six months.
                        The scores of town planners in Australia building empires out of regulating what can and can't be built on low-lying shorelines will have to come to terms with the fact inundation no longer impends and find something more plausible to do. The same is true of the bureaucrats planning to accommodate "climate refugees".
                        Penny Wong's climate mega-portfolio will suddenly be as ephemeral as the ministries for the year 2000 that state governments used to entrust to junior ministers. Malcolm Turnbull will have to reinvent himself at vast speed as a climate change sceptic and the Prime Minister will have to kiss goodbye what he likes to call the great moral issue and policy challenge of our times.
                        It will all be vastly entertaining to watch.
                        THE Age published an essay with an environmental theme by Ian McEwan on March 8 and its stablemate, The Sydney Morning Herald, also carried a slightly longer version of the same piece.
                        The Australian's Cut & Paste column two days later reproduced a telling paragraph from the Herald's version, which suggested that McEwan was a climate change sceptic and which The Age had excised. He was expanding on the proposition that "we need not only reliable data but their expression in the rigorous use of statistics".
                        What The Age decided to spare its readers was the following: "Well-meaning intellectual movements, from communism to post-structuralism, have a poor history of absorbing inconvenient fact or challenges to fundamental precepts. We should not ignore or suppress good indicators on the environment, though they have become extremely rare now. It is tempting to the layman to embrace with enthusiasm the latest bleak scenario because it fits the darkness of our soul, the prevailing cultural pessimism. The imagination, as Wallace Stevens once said, is always at the end of an era. But we should be asking, or expecting others to ask, for the provenance of the data, the assumptions fed into the computer model, the response of the peer review community, and so on. Pessimism is intellectually delicious, even thrilling, but the matter before us is too serious for mere self-pleasuring. It would be self-defeating if the environmental movement degenerated into a religion of gloomy faith. (Faith, ungrounded certainty, is no virtue.)"
                        The missing sentences do not appear anywhere else in The Age's version of the essay. The attribution reads: "Copyright Ian McEwan 2008" and there is no acknowledgment of editing by The Age.
                        Why did the paper decide to offer its readers McEwan lite? Was he, I wonder, consulted on the matter? And isn't there a nice irony that The Age chose to delete the line about ideologues not being very good at "absorbing inconvenient fact"?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                          It appears I am not the only one writing and telling this "inane dribble", perhaps precisely contrary to what others may think, because I an not paid to support a cause, my income does not depend from global warming doom merchants being right. I am not and "environmental journalist" and so my job will not disappear as soon as the BIG CON is uncovered.
                          Academic cool on warming | The Australian
                          Academic cool on warming

                          Brad Norington | April 09, 2008

                          RESPECTED academic Don Aitkin has seen the ugly side of the climate change debate after being warned he faced demonisation if he challenged the accepted wisdom that global warming poses a danger to humanity.
                          Professor Aitkin told The Australian yesterday he had been told he was "out of his mind" by some in the media after writing that the science of global warming "doesn't seem to stack up".
                          Declaring global warming might not be such an important issue, Professor Aitkin argued in a speech to the Planning Insitute of Australia this month that counter measures such as carbon trading were likely to be unnecessary, expensive and futile without stronger evidence of a crisis.
                          The eminent historian and political scientist said in a speech called A Cool Look at Global Warming, which has received little public attention, that he was urged not to express his contrary views to orthodox thinking because he would be demonised.
                          He says critics who question the impact of global warming are commonly ignored or attacked because "scientist activists" from a quasi-religious movement have spread a flawed message that "the science is settled" and "the debate is over".
                          Professor Aitkin is a former vice-chancellor at the University of Canberra, foundation chairman of the Australian Research Council and a distinguished researcher at the Australian National University and Macquarie University.

                          I noticed with delight that the terms I made up ( or I thought I did anyway) some time ago, in relation to global warming start creeping up in other people's articles. "Demonisation" "religious movement", in relation to the global warming catastrophist, and Robin Hood in relation to the present labor government.
                          When I have no illusions that what I say personally has much influence on others due to its limited reach, it is obvious that there is a core group of people who from diverse background do think alike and come to the same conclusions and perhaps end up using similar expressions. I have yet to see the term catastrophist applied to the global warming fanatics. I'll wait and see.
                          I keep on learning. I have added "inane" and "untowardly" to my vocabulary. Thank you!

                          THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES !!!!!!!

                          To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
                          Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
                          To the last syllable of recorded time;
                          And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
                          The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
                          Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
                          That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
                          And then is heard no more. It is a tale
                          Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
                          Signifying nothing.
                          Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 19–28
                          Guest
                          Guest
                          Last edited by Guest; 15 May 2008, 09:58 PM.

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                          • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                            Originally posted by Marc1 View Post
                            Mr Captain, did you really take the time to copy and paste line by line from the two pages list of signatories, those who's qualifications are economist?
                            Originally posted by Marc1 View Post
                            Well congratulations because take away the one you picked, all the others
                            are scientist, professors in either Physics, Geology, Climatology etc.
                            Why have you questioned how long it took me to do the task, yet have not questioned that some of the people on the list are biased and not peer accepted scientists? looking at the list I could tell there was people there obviously not qualified to be there. (economists) Looking further into people behind the list I found "tim ball is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist." Hardly the type of person you want to look to for an unbiased opinion. Unless you arent looking for an unbiased opinion, because you represent the interests of oil companies. Someone doing this will say "pollution" is a greater threat than CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions are pollution. Whether you like it or not, Marc you are representing the oil/ gas/ coal industries.

                            At the moment governments require tax to operate. A lot of income comes from fossil fuel. Of course this is short lived, as fossil fuels will run out. Governments need to look to a new tax base. Carbon is an obvious choice, as if you are wrong Mark, we are stuffing the planet up at a quick rate, and also it will be around after the fossil fuel has run out. Of course its just another coffin in the fossil fuel coffin, their plans of highly fuel efficient cars and expensive fuel is being challenged by a gradual change to the next batch of fuels, rather than rising costs of fossil fuel (as well as rising fossil fuel company profits) until they run out.

                            This whole thread is the promotion of the oil/ gas/ coal industry. They cant argue global warming isnt happening, the evidence is overwhelming. The only way to protect their interests is to argue that global warming is happening, just that we are not the cause.

                            And chevy if you are just a simple bloke trying to work out what to do, there are 2 options we can pick. Do something or do nothing.
                            If we do something we will have either saved the planet by reducing CO2, or made an easier transition to the time when fossil fuel runs out.
                            If we do nothing, we will have problems scrambling for an alternative to fossil fuel when it runs out, or will have problems scrambling to an alternative to fossil fuel and trying to work out how to undo the global warming made now.

                            We dont know if man made global warming is true or not yet. (no amount of oil and gas paid scientists can tell us with 100% certainty despite what they say) But we can choose between one of the first two options and one of the second two options.

                            Is it really that hard a decision?
                            Captain Echidna
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by Captain Echidna; 15 May 2008, 10:03 PM.
                            cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

                            Comment


                            • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                              Please allow me to change the subject slightly.

                              Marc - why do you use biofuels ?

                              What brought you to the biofuel table ?

                              What drives you to keep using biofuels ?

                              As mentioned previously, I think this is the kind of issue that explored fully, could be of great benefit to the biofuels debate.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

                                Originally posted by Maelinar View Post
                                Please allow me to change the subject slightly.

                                Marc - why do you use biofuels ?

                                What brought you to the biofuel table ?

                                What drives you to keep using biofuels ?

                                As mentioned previously, I think this is the kind of issue that explored fully, could be of great benefit to the biofuels debate.
                                I will answer this for marc if i'm wrong he can correct me. ok

                                he uses biofuels because of $$ and to be differant from the norm. Haven't you noticed he disagrees for the sake of disagreeing all the time. he likes being differant and good on him. you need a feww **** stirrers around the joint. and Marc being Marc i'm sure that he would be one of the only people here willing to admit that he uses bio fuels for monetary reasons. for that i give him credit.
                                Cheers
                                Nick.
                                Harold 2002 Toyota Landcruiser 105 series. 4.2lt turbo glide turbo, Too lazy to make bio nowdays times money. 3'' lift.

                                Roidio 2001 Holden Rodeo 4x4 2.8L TD. 2.5" exhaust sytem, H/E shower system. 4" Lift, Airbags, And lots of fruit, B100 for 55,000 . SOLD

                                Elsa 1983 Mercedes-Benz W123 300D. Still The Fastest Merc in Oz, Self built and Female proofed. COUSINS NOW
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