Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Marc there is a big difference between an individual deciding whether to be religious or not, and deciding what to do with the planet. Effectively if you want to be a Buddhist, atheist or Christian I don’t really care, it makes no difference to me (apart from running into you after we both die, if we wind up in the same spot). The grid assumes a possibility of 2 options. If you don’t believe in one option then that’s ok, decide the possibility of it occurring is insignificant and not worth further worry. Your choice will only affect you.

However when deciding the fate of the world, it is different. The actions of everyone affects everyone else. If I global warming exists, those running around using inefficient light globes and driving a V8 on petrol will affect the biofuel and solar panel users. Unless you are so arrogant to say you cannot be wrong, there is a possibility that you are wrong. There is a possibility I am wrong, but I believe strongly I am right. As we cant agree, we need a different mechanism to decide what to do as people of the world.

Your paradigm, is only sound if the choice of belief (religious belief that is) would be truly only a personal one.

However as history teaches, a person chooses a religion as a personal choice only if experiencing a "conversion" as an adult. Most grow into it via their own culture yet both the converted and the the one born into it, both feel to have the duty to impose it onto others. Most religions (with some honorable exceptions) are a conglomerate of principles and values that proven or otherwise are accepted by a certain community as true, and must be imposed onto the rest of humankind in order to save them from themselves.

Someone who is or has been involved in a religious movement would be able to see the striking similarities to the Global Warming movement of today with ease.

You rightly say " However when deciding the fate of the world, it is different. The actions of everyone affects everyone else."........The believer sees the non compliance of his neighbors as a challenge and a danger to the destiny of humanity, just like you say, and as his duty to change the course of history and the damnation of human kind. Nota bene, both your side and the religious people, think that they are "deciding the fate of the world". It is this conviction that drives you both.

Furthermore the religious person thinks (with some variations according to beliefs) that he will have to give account of his work or lack of it, towards the salvation of humanity. Some religions go as far as declaring that any efforts towards preservation of nature are part of worldly business not worth their time since all will be destroyed and made new anyway so why bother!

I do not defend Pascal and his reasoning in his famous "wager" plagiarized in the video above, (conceded in a much more entertaining version than the original) nor do I defend the tunnel vision of the religious.
I am simply saying that the three hypothesis that, stacked one on top of the other are presented as fact to the world to believe, have all the making of a religion and propose the same tunnel vision, the same fanaticism ,the same impositions and the same "altruistic" motivations, "to save humankind"

There are a multitude of salvation merchants out there.
They have a lot in common.
They are all right, they all have the truth by the tail, they all have your's and my welfare at heart.

Just like the religious people that put Galileo on house arrest for supporting Copernicus' heliocentric theories had his soul's welfare at heart and would have killed him "for his own good" had he been less famous, today's eco-crusaders would gladly string up the non complainant for the good of the many.

I think this fad will fade slowly as the many weakness of the arguments and the many layers of conflicting interest are exposed.

Until then I intend to listen with a critical mind. I can do so because we live, for now, in what appears to be a free country.

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Should I be surprised that you have the gall to claim to know what the "religious person" thinks, or indeed to generalise in such an obviously prejudiced way?

For someone claiming to be open minded and forward thinking, you're not doing a very good job of showing it.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

I think this fad will fade slowly as the many weakness of the arguments and the many layers of conflicting interest are exposed.

Until then I intend to listen with a critical mind. I can do so because we live, for now, in what appears to be a free country.

So on the "pascals wager" you are choosing to do nothing.
This will lead to one of the following.
1) Nothing environmentally if you are right about global warming (mind you when fossil fuel runs out it will then probably mean famine, ecconomic collapse, government collapse as their income base of fossil fuel use dries up) or if you are wrong.
2) No environment thats habitable, unless you are in an air conditioned environment, which running on fossil fuels will accelerate the demise of the environment, meaning more fossil fuel use to run air conditioners.....

Excuse me if I fail to see how this is a more logical choice over presuming man made global warming is real (even if its not) and acting accordingly to protect the environment and change our reliance on fossil fuel for transport electricity and food production, which undeniably will run out.

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Excuse me if I fail to see how this is a more logical choice over presuming man made global warming is real (even if its not) and acting accordingly to protect the environment and change our reliance on fossil fuel for transport electricity and food production, which undeniably will run out.

Why am I reminded of that old saying "You'd cut of your nose to spite your face."

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Why am I reminded of that old saying "You'd cut of your nose to spite your face."

Umm I am not sure how you have interpreted my post, but I will clarify?

There is one of the four options with the grid/ pascals wager

1 man made global warming is false and we do nothing. (no dramas, except when fossil fuels run out, and food becomes expensive, governments collapse etc)
2 Man made global warming is true and we do nothing ( good surf at Allice springs, and the costal cities are underwater, but it makes the heat more bearable, and we still have problems when fossil fuel runs out and food becomes expensive, governments collapse etc)
3 Man made global warming is true, and we act to come up with alternatives/ fossil fuel is priced to be uncompetitive (no major dramas, except for some pain now as fossil fuel becomes expensive and people set up alternatives)
4 Man made global warming is false, but we have acted to avoid it (and have come up with some realistic alternatives for fosil fuel, meaning when we run out we have options already.)

Now avoiding the argument of is man made global warming true or not, we can either chose on of the first two (we dont act and get either 1 or 2) or the second two (we do act and we get either 3 or 4)

I cant see logic picking either of the first two, the second two are more sensible. Of course everyone has to choose either one or the other. If you sit on the fence, you are in effect picking one of the first 2.

I dont see anything but benifits for human kind, so dont see how I will be cutting off my nose to spite my face. Feel free to point out how I have "not seen" something I have said, I am used to it (I teach teenagers)

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Sorry mate, what I was referring to, was Marc1 adamantly claiming defiance against all evidence of global warming, because he believes it is just a conspiracy/ploy to make money.

I agree with what you've been saying, it's just that I thought of that old saying, and how it applied to Marc1's comments, whilst reading your post

[CHEVY Member Find all posts View Profile Close CHEVY]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

I wonder if a very basic experiment may not shed some light on this issue.

If we were to build two sealed glass sided green houses (like the ones people grow plants in) Fill one full of CO2 with the second as the control and measure the temperature differences during a sunny day - would this be sufficient to show if CO2 air warming is true ?


...or has this been done ?

[pro forest Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close pro forest]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Marc, to be perfectly honest, I didn't read your entire post.

Global warming is not rocket science! It does not require a team of scientists to confirm that wiping out huge tracts of carbon-absorbing rainforest is going to have a negative impact on the planet!

I think we have got this whole bio-fuel thing arse-about! I applaud anyone who is doing their bit for the environment, but we need to be focusing on where we are going to get the most bang for our buck in terms of reversing the trend.

A handful of people reducing their carbon output is not going to have a massive impact on slowing global warming. And in fact, the use of bio-fuels in Europe is promoting the destruction of more rain-forest to put in more palm oil plantations. We need to be putting pressure on the governments, particularly in Indonesia and Brazil, to stop the massive destruction of rain-forest.

Every minute of every day, an area rain-forest the size of six football fields is being cleared in Indonesia - either for logging or to plant palm oil, or both.

This is where we need to focus our efforts!!

[CHEVY Member Find all posts View Profile Close CHEVY]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

We need to be putting pressure on the governments, particularly in Indonesia and Brazil

pro forest - good luck with that idea.

Perhaps we would be better off putting a major effort into developing the alga biofuel system to an efficient and cheap process.
If we can develop a system that makes forest removal for biofuel uneconomic - tree felling stops overnight.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

And then there is war to contend with -

"The data, provided by the U.S. Central Command, LMI study says, “show that DoD is using approximately 57,000 barrels a day, at a cost of about $3 million per day. This equates to about 16 gallons per soldier per day. This is significantly more than the 2005 consumption rate of 9 gallons per soldier. These numbers make it clear that energy consumption for military operations has increased dramatically in the last 15 years. In Desert Storm, consumption was 4 gallons per soldier per soldier, and in World War II, consumption was only 1 gallon per day per soldier.”

Sohbet Karbuz

That is only 'in theater' consumption, the amount used for all the bases, ships, aircraft, etc. that are not within the battle zone would be many multiples of that figure.

Perhaps some 'greenie' effort could be extended to rolling back the military rather than have Earth Days, no plastic bags and low wattage light bulbs. It could even make the Earth a more pleasant and safe place to live.

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Perhaps some 'greenie' effort could be extended to rolling back the military rather than have Earth Days, no plastic bags and low wattage light bulbs. It could even make the Earth a more pleasant and safe place to live.

Your not questioning the massive environmental benifit turning off the lights for 0.0114% of the year can bring? I mean that must reduce emmisions by nearly 0.0114%? (less the fridge, heater, hot water and stereo of course) At least if it was a day it may be as high as 0.27%

And if plastic bags are so bad, why is it I can still buy them? Actually I do have to buy them for garbage, and also have to buy a green bag to take them home in, now they dont give out a bag that will do both jobs for free anymore. Hmm two lots of buying bags instead of getting one for free that does both jobs I wonder who's idea that was....

Good idea rolling back the millatry. I wonder if the average has gone up because people arent joining the millitary, meaning less people on the frontline? I could hope I guess....

[TroyH Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close TroyH]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Every minute of every day, an area rain-forest the size of six football fields is being cleared in Indonesia - either for logging or to plant palm oil, or both.

This is where we need to focus our efforts!!

Really there is an underlying problem behind all of this, and unless you address the underlying problem, all you are doing is trying to fix the symptoms.

Society as a whole, is addicted to consuming for the sake of consuming. Take mobile phones for example. We are talking about a device that is quite energy intensive to produce, and can last for quite some time, yet some people change them every 3 months just to keep up with current fashions. It's gone beyond having the latest and greatest in technology, and moved on to simply getting it because it's slightly different to your last one.

This extends really to most aspects of our lives. It is there, so we want it. Someone has released a newer/better one, so we replace our perfectly good one.

Now I'm not saying that we should hold on to everything until it's on it's last legs, because trying to encourage that, is just a pipe dream. However at some point we are going to realise (and many already have) that our way of living is not sustainable.

The marketing industry have a lot to answer for, although really they are just a means to an end. The real culprit is companies who sacrifice sustainable responsibility in the never ending drive to increase profits. It's far more profitable to release endless variations of products to help drive the addiction to spending. In addition to designing products with limited lifespans so that consumers are forced to replace them. The marketing people talk about the emotional investment in an item. The cheaper something is, the less likely we are to seriously consider the implications of the purchase.

To think we will be able to change this in the short term is laughable, but there is no time like the present to try to educate people about how their habits affect us all, and to help us all change our ways.

Perhaps at some point we can also look at introducing measures to encourage a more sustainable manufacturing industry.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Our first step towards a greener future IMO is to ban all trading with china. I believe this would slow their economy thus slow their development and teach us in australia that technology and wizzbangs COST. China is a major player in all this both carbon and slave labour wise. if we dont support them with trade sure it will cost us more for many items but think about the longterm future of our country we'll be better off and so will the environment. maybe people wont want plasma big screens for $20,000. just some ramblings.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

There is one of the four options with the grid/ pascals wager

1 man made global warming is false and we do nothing. (no dramas, except when fossil fuels run out, and food becomes expensive, governments collapse etc)
2 Man made global warming is true and we do nothing ( good surf at Allice springs, and the costal cities are underwater, but it makes the heat more bearable, and we still have problems when fossil fuel runs out and food becomes expensive, governments collapse etc)
3 Man made global warming is true, and we act to come up with alternatives/ fossil fuel is priced to be uncompetitive (no major dramas, except for some pain now as fossil fuel becomes expensive and people set up alternatives)
4 Man made global warming is false, but we have acted to avoid it (and have come up with some realistic alternatives for fosil fuel, meaning when we run out we have options already.)

Now avoiding the argument of is man made global warming true or not, we can either chose on of the first two (we dont act and get either 1 or 2) or the second two (we do act and we get either 3 or 4)

I cant see logic picking either of the first two, the second two are more sensible. Of course everyone has to choose either one or the other. If you sit on the fence, you are in effect picking one of the first 2.

You logic makes sense if in fact it was that simple. You, (not you personally) make it up as if everyone in the school yard is playing cricket and I am the one refusing to join and without me you loose the game.

Unfortunately the world is more complicated than that, more complicated than a game to be played in unison clapping at someone's tune because as you clap to save the world, entire nations are plotting to murder you, others are poisoning your food, your air , undermine our institutions and in a not so distant future we may even see attempts at secession Kosovo style.

I have real good belly laugh at the armchair writers who are busy telling me that the worst polluter is my 2 stroke lawnmower that has 90cc and is used once a month for half an hour whilst a small navy ship running on dual 16V Detroit burns 1000+ litres of fuel per hour.
To even consider any "action" at individual level towards the reduction of CO2 emissions when the fuel for my car is dearer because all resources are sold to china an India who build 3-4 coal fired generators a month just to keep up with demand and they have only just started, is as laughable as believing the rhetoric of the government about heroin abuse whilst they preserve the opium plantations in Afghanistan who supply 90% of the world heroin.

If anyone is altruistically inclined in the welfare of the planet and by elevation of the human race, the point to start is not you incandescent globe. It is to debunk the myth and uncover the bullshit, It is by stop believing the current affairs and the tokenism of the governments who feed you lies and govern your actions. Yes we had Milosovich on trial, we bombed the bad serbs, whilst the governemt in Albania stripped the serbs of their organs and sold them to the clinics around the world.

Every one of the many tyrannical government in the world throughout history have grown to totalitarian power by compelling their subdits to act united against what was made to believe a common enemy for the common good.

I take action. I don't sit on the fence, I have in the past risked my life more times than I care to remember. I was on a hit list and the dead squad missed me many times for a small margin. My sin was to speak out, to confront the lies and the abuse, to unmask and to expose governments for what they are.
That, in my view is the action that may bring some cooling to the planet.

If you think that switching the light off will save the planet, you are welcome to your particular belief but allow me to show you that perhaps, just perhaps, you are been taken for a ride, a profitable at that and one that leads only to distraction whilst the powers that be do as they please with the extra totalitarian power you have given them without a fight.

[CHEVY Member Find all posts View Profile Close CHEVY]

Re: Human Induced Global Warming - Fact or Fiction

Hmmm... No answer..... dont tell me that nobody has done the most basic test to see if sunlight heats up CO2 ?